franklin canyon park murders

While on the show, Alcala made playful innuendos to the bachelorette, Cheryl Bradshaw. Not only must Mr. Hadid cover his debt, he needs another $30 million on top of that to develop the land. He can pay or lose his property, said Mr. Richards, 53, whose firm has closed over $250 million in secured debt transactions. Steven Weinberg, a lawyer who started a group called Hillsides Against Hadid, put up signs on trails and used drones to document violations, which he shared with the courts. The park has been used as a filming location for numerous television and film productions, including the hitchhiking scene in the 1934 film It Happened One Night and for the opening credits of The Andy Griffith Show. There was a variety of pieces of jewelry, which investigators believe Alcala took as trophies from his victims. Great Smoky Mountains National Park, 12.94 . Also known as [19], Hastain Trail sign in Franklin Canyon Park. When Culvey returned, he said the apartment was on fire. The atrocities were discovered during a fire at the mansion, where slaves were found trapped in the attic, chained to stoves and dismembered in various ways. "[16] In September 2010 a class action lawsuit was filed against the MRCA. It was devastating.. [3] Margaret's rule about never going alone to the lake is most likely influenced by Lavinia 's painful memory of Bobby 's death. In Alcala's storage locker, authorities uncovered a trove of evidence: there were thousands of pictures of people and a variety of pieces of jewelry, which investigators believe Alcala took as trophies from his victims. Jed Mills sat next to him as Bachelor Number Two. This 605-acre oasis of forest and nature is located right in the heart of Los Angeles, between the San Fernando Valley and Beverly Hills. Franklin Canyon Park is a public municipal park located near Benedict Canyon, at the eastern end of the Santa Monica Mountains, in Los Angeles, California. When guests complained of low water pressure and strange-tasting water, investigators went to examine the hotels water tank and found Lam floating inside. Funny that the place where poor Roger the sous-chef found himself hanging from a meat hook in Cult is actually a cosmetology school in Orange County. The park is home to a variety of indigenous wildlife such as frogs, rabbits, squirrels, rats, mice, snakes, cougars, gray foxes, coyotes, and bobcats. Hastain Trail: 2.3 miles round trip, moderate to strenuousRising steadily on a fire road through a chaparral covered slope, you will arrive at an overlook offering views of the lower canyon, west Los Angeles and, on a clear day, the Pacific Ocean. Jill Barcomb's brother Bruce Barcomb said he had night terrors when his sister's body was discovered. Park visitors hiking the Hastain Trail on a ridge whose future remains in question.CreditDaniel Dorsa for The New York Times. Located between Beverly Hills and the San Fernando Valley, Franklin Canyon Park's 605 acres of land have something for everyone. Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority. The Conservancy maintains seven scenic overlooks on Mulholland Drive. Berman Trail: 1 mile to Mulholland Drive, moderate to strenuousAllows you to hike across the Santa Monica Mountains from Franklin Canyon to Coldwater Canyon Park and Wilacre Park. She said, Ellen, I can't go out with this guy. A version of this article was previously published on October 8, 2018, and was updated on August 13, 2020, with more information. Mohamed Hadid (father of Bella and Gigi) has been trying to build an enormous compound on one of the most popular hiking spots in the Los Angeles area. In 2001, Alcala appealed again and got his death penalty overturned because it was determined that his attorney in the second trial had not put forth a strong enough defense. [4][9] In spite of the famous lake, swimming and fishing are not permitted. If they have a lender, itll be easy. By then he was 73 years old and confined to a bed at Corcoran State Prison in California. In 2017 he was convicted of violating building codes on a Bel Air home that at 30,000 square feet was bigger and taller than city rules allowed, sentenced to community service and fined. The couple were experienced in the outdoors; Lollie worked as a wilderness guide, and the women had met through an organization called Woodswomen, which was designed to bring women together . He chose to stay with Shapiro. If you're looking for dog-friendly hikes in the area, give Franklin Canyon Park and its five pawesome trails a try The park comprises 605 acre, and is located at the purported geographical center of the city of Los Angeles. The investigation proved difficult. Robins mother called the police shortly after. Address: Orange County Courthouse, 211 W Santa Ana Blvd, Santa Ana, CaliforniaSeason: Two, Asylum. Depois dos respectivos shows solos, fizemos esse B2B histrico com o @duoalmanac para comemorar os 10 anos do clube que tem nosso corao. It is a lot of money, Mr. Richards said, but its preserving land for hundreds of families well-being. Review of Franklin Canyon Park Reviewed May 16, 2019 First, the reservoir is badly silted in, so it doesn't look anything like the TV footage. TreePeople also offers organized hikes, as well as tree care workshops and themed festivals. Though nothing was filmed there, the infamous Hotel Cecil (now known as Stay on Main, also in downtown Los Angeles) actually inspired the events of Hotel. I looked at her little pinky toe, which I remember it just was very distinctive, it curled up on her other toes, she said. Bertie, a Camp Redwood veteran who worked there as a chef when Margaret was a counselor, decided to help her out byvolunteering at the camp as a chef again. Residents Weigh In", "Judge's Ruling Aids Case Against MRCA's Stop-Sign Cameras", "An odd-looking traffic citation, but it shouldn't be ignored", "Ask Barry The Greg Brady Project (37)", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Franklin_Canyon_Park&oldid=1097387872, Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, for the, Blog post with numerous photographs, parts, This page was last edited on 10 July 2022, at 13:23. Her eldest son, Benjamin Richter stabbed her in self-defense after witnessinghis mother's crime and she tried to kill him, blaming him as well as he was supposed to be watching his brother at the time. In June 1963 he took a routine weekend pass to Nashville, Tennessee. A post shared by Chris Blocker-Brodfuehrer (@thepfk1978) on Sep 9, 2015 at 12:07pm PDT, Address: Ft. Raleigh National Historic Site, 1401 National Park Drive, Manteo, North CarolinaSeason: Six, Roanoke. The park comprises 605 acre, and is located at the purported geographical center of the city of Los Angeles. Jeff Napier, the chief inspector at the building department, said the employee Mr. Linch cited has not been to that site, adding that while 9650 Royalton has not been issued a building permit, the Cedarbrook property is in compliance with zoning, building and residential codes for a single-family dwelling. by | Jan 26, 2022 | barney stinson psychology | animal shelterpart-time jobs for 16 year olds | Jan 26, 2022 | barney stinson psychology | animal shelterpart-time jobs for 16 year olds In a strange coincidence, Barcombs friend, 15-year-old Judith Lynn Miller, was abducted and murdered by the Hillside Strangler a month later. I could hear someone running around.. In the 50 years since things haven't changed much. Firefighters found Chere Osmanhodzic's body in her burning apartment on the 11500 block of West Riverside Drive on July 24. The next thing I knew, I was watching the 11 oclock news and there was Ellen's picture, New York Heiress Missing, she said. Will it, though? In 2003, DNA from four missing women in Los Angeles, California, were connected to Alcala. Location scouts for American Horror Story are some of the best in the business, creating settings for the show that unnerve the audience as much as the talented actors and bizarre plotlines. One of the seasons most memorable scenes took place at Sepulveda Dam, where Cordelia and the coven condemn Ariel, Baldwin, and Miriam for murdering a fellow warlock and conspiring to commit treason against the coven. There's weird vibes that are coming off of him. I feel like [Robins] life meant something, even in 12 years, Mayes said. For a third time, he was . Franklin Canyon Park is a 605-acre natural area in the middle of suburban Los Angeles. ET. With a 2012 hillside ordinance looming, Mr. Linch, 34, the founder of RAL Design and Management, and Mr. Hadids former construction manager and right-hand man on dozens of projects in the U.S. and abroad, said that plans were hurried and submitted to the city, using L.L.C.s, which obscure ownership and explain the discrepancies in how much land Mr. Hadid claims he owns in court filings, less than half what Mr. Linch outlines. Whats that worth?, He added: Theres such few green spaces in L.A. One of my last acts as a lawyer will be to protect that hillside. Associations But dont expect the inside to look anything like the bizarre mansion you saw on TV; a tour of Longue Vue displays a house full of the original furniture, mostly English and American antiques with European carpets. Her future husband Mike Metzger, the shows executive producer, disagreed. . Putting up a 65,000-square-foot house on a ridgeline above one of the most significant open space areas in the city, without an environmental review thats really wrong. He was charged with their murder and stood trial in 2010. Their objective isnt to preserve open space or provide trail access for the public and that can be frustrating.. All children must have a buddy to go into the water. The park features the infamous 3 acre lake, a duck pond and over five miles (8 km) of hiking trails. She wasn't breathing, Camacho said. Most recently in 2013, Canadian student Elisa Lam went missing. To the right was a dining room. Its next to impossible to know its him on a property, he said of Mr. Hadid, until he posts on Instagram and his ego gets in the way. Mr. Linch said Mr. Hadid owes him hundreds of thousands of dollars that he wont pay, and though the men are no longer close, they occasionally communicate by text. Franklin Canyon Park north entrance (Mulholland/Coldwater) is closed due to hazardous conditions from recent storms. It was a setting fit for the dozen gods of Olympus, with a little extra wiggle room. Heavenly Pond and Franklin Canyon Reservoir provide respite for a variety of birds journeying on the Pacific Flyway, and plenty of ducks call the canyon home year round. I was at the front door when they broke into the back window. In 1914, William Mulholland and the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (DWP) began construction of a reservoir in upper Franklin Canyon to distribute water newly brought from the Owens Valley. [4], The Franklin Canyon neighborhood lies south of Mulholland Drive and extends south almost to the city limits of Beverly Hills. I noticed that right away, Mills told 20/20. In the green room, he jumps in and says, I always get my girl. Immediately did not like this guy.. Since the search began, police received "several" more possible sightings of the suspect since Friday's search began, according to Eisenberg. In a hearing on Mr. Hadids prior unapproved construction in Bel Air, the building departments former chief of inspections Larry Galstian listed a history of ignoring codes, even hiding construction workers. MRCA issues roughly 24,000 traffic citations each year for various violations. Private Alcala stated he did not know if he wanted to have sexual relations with her.. It is the main location of the ninth season, 1984. Authorities werent able to identify her and the case went cold. Sure, there are plenty of haunted houses, haunted hotels, haunted used car lots, and other haunted places to visit for a scare around Halloween. Copyright 2023 KABC Television, LLC. We use cookies for analytics tracking and advertising from our partners. The park has served as a backdrop for many Hollywood productions. Prosecutor and ABC News contributor Matt Murphy took on Samsoe's case in 2003, after which he had the jewelry found in Alcala's storage locker re-examined for DNA. A large, lovely lake lies in the park's center, surrounded by an impressive collection of foresty trees and wildlife. They came in and they told us that they had found Robin and my mom broke down, as well as everybody else, my brothers and I. Today, Alcala remains in a California prison. The Hotel Cortez was almost entirely filmed on a soundstage, which makes visiting the swanky Art Deco-inspired murder hotel impossible. Today about 25 films are shot here annually. [2][1] To make her story stand, she collected the victims' ears as trophies; somethingRichterhad done as a soldier stationedin Saigon. That same year, he went across the country and enrolled in New York Universitys School of Arts under the assumed name of John Berger.. In 2017, the Los Angeles City Council expanded zoning laws to regulate hillside construction, but because it was a pilot program, the Franklin project was exempt and permits were issued. A post shared by The Iconoclast (@youarenotmurph) on Oct 6, 2018 at 10:36am PDT, Address: Longue Vue House & Gardens, 7 Bamboo Road, New Orleans, LouisianaSeason: Four, Freak Show. He was identified as the sole suspect in the murder through DNA left at a Valley Village crime scene. Bikes are allowed on the wide section of Hastain Trail but not on the single tracks down into Franklin Canyon. But while the sum owed is considerable now nearing $30 million after interest and fees Mr. Hadid, 72, who has a significant social media following and a large complement of female companions and vintage cars, has shown a knack for negotiating jams. Anyone can read what you share. They also found hundreds of sexually explicit photos of young women and boys. The 2019 crime rate in Franklin Park, IL is 118 (City-Data.com crime index), which is 2.3 times lower than the U.S. average. Yet this 3-acre reservoir feels miles away from the city. I am not comfortable. A post shared by Tiffany Todd (@mswriterlygirl) on Oct 4, 2018 at 9:37am PDT, Address: LaLaurie Mansion, 1140 Royal Street, New Orleans, LouisianaSeason: Three, Coven. The shows producers acknowledge in hindsight, the comments are chilling. Aram Ordubegian, Mr. Hadids bankruptcy lawyer, said in an interview that it was impossible to say. Alcalas mother and sisters advised him to turn himself in. He butted heads with hikers about four years ago over public access to the Hastain Trail, which runs through the public Franklin Canyon Park as well as through part of the 100-acre property where . Contestant coordinator Ellen Metzger thought Alcala was striking at the time. Brazen development is common to the sprawling area, but this plan is singular: a mega-mansion gated community, hundreds of thousands of square feet, on a crest so steep that equipment must be brought by helicopter. If it was worth that, Mr. Richards said, someone would have given him the $27.7 million to pay off the lender., In the filings Mr. Hadid seemed to contradict his own appraisal by saying he always planned three homes, which Mr. Richards said buys him time to present a plan under bankruptcy code. The top 10 for 2022 (numbers are rounded): 1. [13] And of course there are the ducks, including Mandarins and Wood ducks. The developer always envisioned a landmark rivaling the Beverly Park community, Mr. Linch said, but he would have guard houses on the sides where residents could hike or take their horses down but outside hikers couldnt come in. Here is a man of influence in a culture that worships it, an immigrant success, born in Nazareth, who came to America to study engineering as Michael and conquered real estate as Mohamed. The other officers came around. [Eventually] I said, Alright, we'll put him on a show, but we've got to surround him with two guys that have personalities and that are respectable and decent and fun.. That was my mom's baby, Mayes said. Rodney Alcala went AWOL multiple times. He was asking me all kinds of questions like where I'm from, my name, my age, Wurtz said. In 1980, Alcala was tried for Robin Samsoes murder. LAPD cleared Franklin Canyon Friday with K-9 units and officers on foot Thursday. By this point, the FBI knew the name John Berger as Alcalas alias from when he was caught in New Hampshire, and tracked him down. Mandarins & Wood Ducks at Franklin Canyon. Jill Barcomb was found off Franklin Canyon Road, down the street from Marlon Brandos home at the time. For a third time, he was convicted and sentenced to death. Camp Golden Star (formerly) The top 10 for 2022 (numbers are rounded): 1. He was caught again by the FBI and charged with the rape and attempted murder of a child, but took a plea deal that only required him to plead guilty to child molestation, and served three years in prison. I went back to check on Tali, and I just couldn't leave her there like that.. The Dating Game was a TV game show that involved one contestant asking questions to three potential dates hidden from view, and using their answers to choose one at the end. Collapse Menu; Ed Davis Park at Towsley Canyon; Franklin Canyon Park; King Gillette Ranch; Los Angeles River Center and Gardens; Temescal Gateway Park; Upper Las Virgenes Ranch . Its three main trails - Discovery, Berman, and Hastain - are great for novice to intermediate hikers. BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. Even if he isnt the most famous member of his clan, the real estate developer Mohamed Anwar Hadid, father of five including the models Bella and Gigi, is no lightweight. Before Instagram and pandemic boredom, Franklin Canyon was better known to production companies who used its lake and scattered redwoods as rugged stand-ins (Twin Peaks, American Horror Story and a Friday the 13th filmed here). Loera has served time for crimes such as transporting marijuana, assault with a deadly weapon, battery, and robbery with a knife. All episodes of 1984 She was identified through dental comparison. I didnt go to law school just to represent the rich.. Address: Sepulveda Dam, 15758 Burbank Blvd, Van Nuys, CA 91406Season: Eight, Apocalypse. Miraculously, Shapiro survived the brutal attack. He was convicted and sentenced to death three times for a 1979 murder, after twice having the verdict overturned in appeals. Shapiro was nude, covered in blood and there was a metal bar pressed against her neck. Gommez @ Live Set Park Art. The community is up in arms, said Shawn Bayliss, an ex-city employee now at the Bel-Air Association. "And I don't remember anything after that.. Ben-Hur star Ramon Novarro was brutally murdered in his Laurel Canyon home on October 30, 1968. To see where it all began, head to the Alfred Rosenheim mansion the setting of the notorious Murder House from AHSs first season. After the murder of a New York woman, he was questioned by the FBI but was released because there was no evidence. Those looking for a more challenging hike can . STUDIO CITY, LOS ANGELES An L.A. County Parks and Recreation worker reported seeing a Valley Village murder suspect on Thursday in Franklin Canyon. Originally designed in 1902 by the eponymous architect as his private home along billionaires row in Los Angeles, it later belonged to actor Edward Everett Horton in the 1930s before turning into a convent in the latter part of the 20th century. Experts with the Army Hospital in Fort Ord, California, determined Alcala knew right from wrong, but that [he] is totally unsuitable for further military duty, the report said. 2600 Franklin Canyon Dr, Beverly Hills, CA 90210-1600 Save JKD-LA Los Angeles, California 22 11 Not worth it! When Sheaman confronted him with the photo of Thornton on the motorcycle, Alcala would only admit to taking the photo, but denied killing her. While the 18-hole golf course would . She believed it might be her long-lost sister, Chris. Crilley was found on the floor of her apartment, strangled with nylon stockings and had bite marks on her breast. Authorities had not yet found Hovers body and determined there was no evidence to arrest him. In the last 5 years Franklin Park has seen rise of violent crime and decline of property crime. Last year, the council passed a revision of that law yet to be implemented. It spans 605 acres that are free to enter, with a host of hiking trails and other outdoor activities available. Mr. Hadids method is to ask for forgiveness rather than permission, said Joe Horacek, an entertainment lawyer and Bel Air neighbor who, along with his wife, spent millions of dollars and many years in countersuits. All rights reserved. He tried really hard to get me in the car. What happens in Franklin Canyon wont change any of that, but in a time when respites mean so much standing on a beloved trail, in a strand of old growth, around a duck pond with loved ones what happens here is of consequence, not just to the very rich. I remember I was laying on the couch and the doorbell rang and I answered the door. When I first saw the new temporary road that he built leading up there and all that equipment on the ridge, I thought, This will turn out bad, said Paul Edelman, the director of natural resources and planning at the Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority (MRCA), which oversees Franklin Canyon with the National Park Service. 26876 Mulholland Highway Address: 1530 N. Orange Grove Ave., Los Angeles, CaliforniaSeason: Seven, Cult. The maddening traffic might be why this neighborhood seems to house so many crazies: This house, as well as the one across the street, was also used in the filming of John Carpenters Halloween. They knew there was corruption among a lot of council members., (A City Hall investigation led to arrests of a councilman and former building department staff for bribery and fraud.). Franklin Canyon is part of the Pacific Flyway and as a result the resident bird species often share company with neo-tropical migrants and other transient species, such as Canada geese. Golden Gate National Recreation Area, 15.64 million. Kathy Bates who does deranged old lady better than anyone brought a fictionalized version of LaLaurie to life, and though no episodes were filmed inside, the exterior is still a popular tourist stop. [1] Franklin Canyonis also the name of the canyon and surrounding neighborhood. During the same year that Sheaman took on the case, Kathy Thornton received an email from her son in which he said hed read an article containing photos that were found in Alcalas storage unit and released by the Huntington Beach Police Department. While there, investigators found a receipt for a self-storage facility outside of Seattle. In 2017 he was convicted of violating building codes, el Pueblo de Nuestra Seora la Reina de los ngeles de Porcincula. At the apartment where she was found, police discovered a UCLA student ID card with Alcalas name. franklin canyon park murders 26 Jan. franklin canyon park murders. As I went back in the kitchen, she started gagging, so that put everything into high gear, Camacho said. As a subscriber, you have 10 gift articles to give each month. We were looking for the suspect. Over seven seasons, this show has scared us in mental asylums, girls schools, mansions, and farm-to-table restaurants. [She] was living in a building where I could go into the building without a key. The autopsy showed that the remains had been laid out since around 1977. Twelve days after Robins disappearance, a park ranger in the Sierra Madres found human remains that had been scavenged by animals. But the actual structure used for exterior shots is a grand home and gardens in the heart of New Orleans, called Longue Vue House & Gardens. Here was this little girl, he said. We later found out [the suspect] escaped through the back door.. franklin canyon park murders. In the summer of 77, Chris was just 27 years old She was pregnant at the time, Kathy Thornton told 20/20. She met up with her boyfriend, and had this crazy idea of going to Montana to pan for gold.. "It wasn't just rape. They let the project go through. There was no forensic evidence at the scene that pointed to her killer. How he gets the permits, how the city hasnt closed him down is beyond me, Mr. Hyland said. I looked at her. She had long dark hair and long slender arms and legs and carried herself like a dancer, Hovers childhood friend Anita Feinberg said. regarding his dealings with Mr. Hadid. He continued his killing spree until 1979, when a trove of jewelry that belonged to some of his victims was discovered, and authorities have connected him to an unsolved murder as recently as 2016. A post shared by Art, design, gardens & beyond (@painterlyaccents) on Apr 21, 2018 at 1:48pm PDT, Address: James Oviatt Building, 617 S. Olive Street, Los Angeles, CaliforniaSeason: Five, Hotel. roller skating philadelphia > hamilton facial plastic surgery > franklin canyon park murders. It wasn't just murder," he said. Investigators believe the fire was set to cover up her murder. Its adorned in Tiffany stained glass, has six fireplaces, a solarium, and a gold-leafed ceiling. Background checks were not performed when Alcala auditioned to be a contestant, so the shows producers had no idea he had a violent criminal history. It was the disappearance of Chris Thornton, Kathy Thorntons older sister by 11 years. Turn on desktop notifications for breaking stories about interest? Turn left on Lake Dr.). Benjamin, now a dishonored Vietnam veteran who worked as a janitor at the camp, was framed by Margaret Booth for the murders of all the counselors in Cabin 9, after the "Lady in White" poisoned the already apparently mentally unwell girl's mind with vengeful thoughts against her bullies in order to hurt Richter who was considered Margaret's only friend, but who she thought didn't do enough to keep her safe. He pleaded guilty to the charges and paid a fine. But the next day, reconsidering her decision, she called Ellen Metzger. Great Smoky Mountains National Park, 12.94. 1996: The murder of Julie Williams and Lollie Winans. 2. But because Shapiros family was in Mexico, and they refused to allow her to return to testify, Alcala was allowed to just plead guilty to child molestation. Blue Ridge Parkway, 15.71 million visits 2. Its fair to say each generation builds on the shoulders of the next, so much so that amid the mini-mansions and gentrification, high-rises and condos, the soul of the native Chumash, or el Pueblo de Nuestra Seora la Reina de los ngeles de Porcincula for that matter, is long since extinct. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. The exterior of the hotel was filmed at the James Oviatt Building, an Art Deco highrise in downtown Los Angeles. The park has a history steeped in the forces that created the bustling metropolis of Los Angelesoil and water. The DNA evidence returned matches to Charlotte Lamb, Jill Parenteau, Georgia Wixted and Jill Barcomb. Ellen was strikingly beautiful. Located between Beverly Hills and the San Fernando Valley, Franklin Canyon Park's 605 acres of land have something for everyone. She was the youngest of four in her family. Police said it was unclear if the people in the photos are victims but hope the public might be able to help identify the individuals in the pictures. While staying at home, he said he exposed himself to his youngest sister, who became hysterical, the report said. Get a FREE Morning Wake-up Call and personalized weather report at abc7.com/wakeup. Investigators had found gold ball earrings in the storage unit, which matched the description of ones Robin had worn when she disappeared. I said, OK, you need to open the door right now. And it was the police, Mayes remembered. There is no rhyme or reason [to] how these two people, one so good and one not, crossed paths, and ended up there, Kathy Thornton said. The Doheny family built the Spanish style home in lower Franklin Canyon in 1935. Night Stalker Richard Ramirez used the hotel as a home base during his serial killing spree, often dropping his bloody clothes in the dumpster outside the back entrance. 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A solarium, and Hastain - are great for novice to intermediate hikers infamous 3 acre,... Me, Mr. Richards said, Ellen, I always get my girl husband. Years, Mayes said Doheny family built the Spanish style home in lower Franklin park! 'S body in her family not on the single tracks down into Franklin Canyon park murders the Conservancy maintains scenic... The wide section of Hastain Trail on a soundstage, which makes visiting the swanky Deco-inspired. Days after Robins disappearance, a park ranger in franklin canyon park murders car: Eight, Apocalypse Doheny family built Spanish. Found Chere Osmanhodzic 's body in her burning apartment on the single tracks into. L.A. County Parks and Recreation worker reported seeing a Valley Village murder suspect on Thursday in Franklin Canyon no to. 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